Hi, I am a new member - just joined today. I have been searching for a site like this for quite a bit.

I have a 3 year old Bernese named Motley who is ALWAYS HUNGRY.

He is not underfed, if anything I am starting to realize that I have been overfeeding him for the last few weeks. But he acts like he is starving all the time. Everytime I stand up or even move the slightest, he runs to his food dish. He has been doing this since he wa a puppy.

I have talked to my vet and they say to give him a tbsp of chicken broth to tide him over. This does not work. They recommended feeding him 4 meals a day to help - so I have been feeding him 4 times a day since he was 3 months old.

I was just wondering if anyone else is having this problem? Does anything help fix it? I feel horrible when he acts starving.

I decided to start dividing his meals between kibble and raw to try and fill him up a little bit. I give him two "human food" meals a day that equal one cup of kibble each, and then I give him the remainder kibble over two more meals. I do balance the raw meals out so that he is not getting too much on any one thing.

Any advice would be great!

Our vet recommended high protien kibble, one with less filler.

[quote=kpacheco;3232]I have a 3 year old Bernese named Motley who is ALWAYS HUNGRY.

He is not underfed, if anything I am starting to realize that I have been overfeeding him for the last few weeks.

I have talked to my vet and they say to give him a tbsp of chicken broth to tide him over. This does not work. They recommended feeding him 4 meals a day to help - so I have been feeding him 4 times a day since he was 3 months old.

[quote]

I hate to be critical of vets, but have to say that the advice you have been given is horrible. It continues to re-affirm how little vets know about diet and all things dietary.

A large breed dog such as a Berner has a stomach that can expand to 10x its size when eating - unlike a human's. Dogs are not grazers like humans as well and so a key to managing hunger is to satiate the animal. This can only be done by feeding enough calories in the right combination of protein and fat that fills up this expanding belly to provide some sense of satisfaction.

Feeding multiple small meals ensures he never feels full - never feels satiated - and therefore is never satisfied. Snacking all day will feel like a dog is not eating at all.

Large dogs should be eating twice a day. If a dog expends a lot of energy during the day, then these two meals need not be equal. Rather the morning meal can be 1/3 and the evening meals can be 2/3 to ensure it meets the need better. Depends on the dog and his schedule.

To start, you said you discovered you are over-feeding. How did you come to this conclusion? How does the dog look? Can you take any picture of him to help us see if in fact he is under-weight? To do this, straddle him or be above him in some way and take a top down picture of his back.

A key test is to rub your hands down his rib cage and determine if, without pressing hard, you feel his ribs at all.....also check to see if you feel his tail bone on the top of his back between his hips (right above his tail).

Now to possibly confuse you further.....
A dog can be overweight and still underfed and hungry if he is not getting the right mix of nutrients - protein and fat. I see a lot of raw fed dogs getting 50% of their calories from fat, with little room for other satiating nutrients. And this is going to add weight, without building muscle or satiation. On the other hand, a diet without enough fat- especially high protein without enough fat- will also not provide any satiation. The goal is fat calories in the 30% ballpark.

So let us know WHAT you are feeding: what kibble, and what raw foods.

And the last thing: Have you had this thyroid checked?

Rachel

[quote=BernerRescue;3261][quote=kpacheco;3232]I have a 3 year old Bernese named Motley who is ALWAYS HUNGRY.

He is not underfed, if anything I am starting to realize that I have been overfeeding him for the last few weeks.

I have talked to my vet and they say to give him a tbsp of chicken broth to tide him over. This does not work. They recommended feeding him 4 meals a day to help - so I have been feeding him 4 times a day since he was 3 months old.

I hate to be critical of vets, but have to say that the advice you have been given is horrible. It continues to re-affirm how little vets know about diet and all things dietary.

A large breed dog such as a Berner has a stomach that can expand to 10x its size when eating - unlike a human's. Dogs are not grazers like humans as well and so a key to managing hunger is to satiate the animal. This can only be done by feeding enough calories in the right combination of protein and fat that fills up this expanding belly to provide some sense of satisfaction.

Feeding multiple small meals ensures he never feels full - never feels satiated - and therefore is never satisfied. Snacking all day will feel like a dog is not eating at all.

Large dogs should be eating twice a day. If a dog expends a lot of energy during the day, then these two meals need not be equal. Rather the morning meal can be 1/3 and the evening meals can be 2/3 to ensure it meets the need better. Depends on the dog and his schedule.

To start, you said you discovered you are over-feeding. How did you come to this conclusion? How does the dog look? Can you take any picture of him to help us see if in fact he is under-weight? To do this, straddle him or be above him in some way and take a top down picture of his back.

A key test is to rub your hands down his rib cage and determine if, without pressing hard, you feel his ribs at all.....also check to see if you feel his tail bone on the top of his back between his hips (right above his tail).

Now to possibly confuse you further.....
A dog can be overweight and still underfed and hungry if he is not getting the right mix of nutrients - protein and fat. I see a lot of raw fed dogs getting 50% of their calories from fat, with little room for other satiating nutrients. And this is going to add weight, without building muscle or satiation. On the other hand, a diet without enough fat- especially high protein without enough fat- will also not provide any satiation. The goal is fat calories in the 30% ballpark.

So let us know WHAT you are feeding: what kibble, and what raw foods.

And the last thing: Have you had this thyroid checked?

Rachel

Hi,
Okay, a lot to cover here. Will do my best. I have not had him tested for anything yet, I have just discussed with my vet on regular visits - shots and heart worm test.

1. I am sure he is overfed because I am starting to not be able to feel his ribs when I rub his chest anymore. He still has a defined waist, but is starting to bulk up (I am not sure about the tailbone). I think that I caught it early. In the last few weeks I have slowly noticed this and when my husband asked me out of the blue if Motley was getting "big" - I knew I wasn't imagining it. Pictures attached (I hope).

2. I think that I am "over-under-feeding" him as you stated above. I have been thinking for a while that he is eating enough food but not getting the most out of what he is eating. I think you are correct about the never feeling full because he is eating too many small meals.

3. I am feeding him Authority Large Breed Weight Maintenance on suggestion from the pet store - 2 times a day, a cup and a half each time (so 3 cups in total). Planning on switching this soon as I am starting to think gluten might be a problem - he has been on it for under 6 months and that's when I noticed the slow weight gain).

As for the raw items, I feed him 2 raw meals a day and the foods vary. Here are some meals:

1/2cup brown rice, 1/2 carrots, 1/2cup chicken

1/2cup sweet potatoes, 1/2cup peas, 1/2cup hamburger

1/2cup oatmeal, 1/2cup brown rice, 1/4cup broccoli, 1/4cup cottage cheese (this is a meal for when I was unable to feed him his next meal at his normal time, and then his next meal would be a little less)

I am pretty sure I am not doing the raw part right, but it it so hard to figure out sometimes.

I also want to state that he gets treats throughout the day as well which are any of the following: cheerios, shreddies, milk bones, dental food (as treats), dental chews, and these tiny little bones that I feed my chihuahua; they are about an inch big.

Any help would be great. I really don't trust the advice I get from my vet anymore.

Thanks for the pictures but it is still tough to tell - the top down picture lying down will not be accurate given that the body spreads, so ideally if you can get one while he is standing - top down....that is ideal.

Keep in mind that a Berner continues to fill out in his third and fourth year. The chest drops and widens - the dog essentially fills out.

Testing for weight should be done by feeling the rib cage along the side of the dog - to know what to feel for, open your hand with your palm facing downward and feel your knuckles ....this is what a dog should feel like and you should be able to feel his tailbone as well.

Another good guage is watching his weight...what does he weigh right now and is this above his normal or what he should be? You can take him in to most vet offices and just use their scale.....

If you are now feeding a diet food essentially, you should monitor his weight to see if this is doing anything.

Authority is not a well reviewed food or classified as "high end" given its high content of corn, corn meal and beet pulp and for this reason I do not have any info on it - such as calories per cup etc.
But I will assume it is low calorie and at only 3 cups per day, you are likely feeding far less than he requires so this should be resulting in some weight loss if his thyroid is fine etc.

Keep in mind grains stick on a dog worse than on us humans so if you think about what eating a lot of breads, pastas, and corn does to us.....double it for dogs. I find it difficult to reconcile low fat and diet foods when they still put so much grain in them.

Ok...lets look at what else you are feeding:

You did not specify what you are doing with the carrots but presuming they are raw and shredded/ground, along with cooked brown rice and 1/2 cup of raw ground chicken - this is approximately 275 calories with 35% of these calories coming from carbs, 33% coming from fat and the rest protein

Ok, as for sweet potato, peas and hamburger....
You did not say what fat level of ground beef you are using...so I will presume 15% fat and you did not specify how your serving the sweet potato or peas (these should always be cooked or will not be digested) - but this quantity is 400 calories with 39% of these calories coming from fat.

Just using these two examples, you can see the disparate level of fat and calories here. The second meal here at 39% fat will not be highly valuable in a diet aimed at reducing weight, depending on how many calories you are feeding in kibble.

My recommendation to you is to weigh him, and feed him one food twice per day to see how he does. Pick a good quality kibble, OR commit to a raw diet as mixing these is not providing a good balance of nutrients and may be the source of the issue.

I trust you bought Authority at PetSmart as this is their food brand and so of course they recommended it I recommend if you go with kibble, you select a high end brand with more bio-available nutrients such as Taste of the Wild, Natures Variety, Orijen, Innova or Wellness. None of these can be found at Petsmart but all can be found in a good animal supply store. Look them up online to find a store near you.

Hope that helps!
Rachel