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Holdmeyer25

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04-25-2013, 01:14 PM   1 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #1 (permalink)
Old Front line or no front line??
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I have heard different things from yes use front line to a BIG FLAT NO it's bad for their skin. I live in the south as in Alabama. We have tics everywhere, so I am worried about not putting anything on him. What are your advise on this issue?
I have also heard NO to heart worm med? Which shocks me? I am not sure I could risk that.

My other two dogs that are yorkie-poos have used front line, and then we switched to k9 advantage, but it did not work as well. We love front line, and have had great results with it.

I just do not want to do anything that could harm my berner, but tics, fleas, and heart worms could!

So, it's just a tough choice on what should or should not be done....thoughts?
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04-25-2013, 06:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I think it's a big flat no, mainly. We're still waiting for our little guy, but our breeder has a strict vaccination contract along with things like using flea meds. Between the research she has provided us and what I've dug up on the side, it can weaken their immune systems. The chemicals in it are harsh, also why it can be bad for their skin. However, if fleas and tics are a major problem in your area, I would speak with your local vet since they'll know the risks of giving it to them as well as not.
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smile meadow

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04-25-2013, 06:55 PM   #3 (permalink)
Old front line?
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Originally Posted by LittleBo View Post
I think it's a big flat no, mainly. We're still waiting for our little guy, but our breeder has a strict vaccination contract along with things like using flea meds. Between the research she has provided us and what I've dug up on the side, it can weaken their immune systems. The chemicals in it are harsh, also why it can be bad for their skin. However, if fleas and tics are a major problem in your area, I would speak with your local vet since they'll know the risks of giving it to them as well as not.

I have 4 berners from different blood lines. My experience has been that some are more skin sensitive then others, so ask your breeder. What I have been doing with mine is first three days of the month I crush a large garlic clove, pack it into something very tasty like butter or liverwurst or hamburger and hand it to the dogs. I am not in a bad flea or tick area though, but I have no problem with external or internal parasites over the years.
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04-26-2013, 11:14 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by smile meadow View Post
I have 4 berners from different blood lines. My experience has been that some are more skin sensitive then others, so ask your breeder. What I have been doing with mine is first three days of the month I crush a large garlic clove, pack it into something very tasty like butter or liverwurst or hamburger and hand it to the dogs. I am not in a bad flea or tick area though, but I have no problem with external or internal parasites over the years.

You're not concerned about thiosulphate exposure/hemolytic anemia? I thought that there was a cumulative effect with repeated exposure.
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04-26-2013, 11:24 AM   #5 (permalink)
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With just about anything, you need to weigh the risks. If you are in a heavily tic-infested area, your dog's risk of contracting a tic-bourne illness is pretty high. Would those illnesses pose a bigger threat to his health than the side-effects of heart worm medication and flea/tic medication?

Talk it over with your vet. They won't recommend a treatment if they feel the risk of the treatment outweighs the risk of non-treatment.

There is a heartworm medication available that also treats for fleas. There is also a Lyme's disease vaccination available. We got those. Because tics transmit more than just Lyme's disease, though, we're not completely covered and we're supposed to watch out for tics and if we notice them, use a treatment like Frontline. Our place isn't a tic-rich environment, though, and you might not want to take that risk.
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BernerRescue

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04-26-2013, 10:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Berners are immune deficient and not good candidates for this strong of a chemical load if you want them to be healthy.

Vaccines......count them....plus flea and tick chemicals plus a heartworm pesticide (registered with the EPA by the way as a pesticide) that you expect them to ingest? Yikes!

I wish I could post the pictures I just took of a resuce girl we are in the process of placing......just this profile. She is just 2 years old and has been given all of the above constantly during her life......over vaccinated and over chemical application has done a number on her immune system. She has no hair over more than 1/3 of her body which is raw, oozing hot spot skin that is irritated and itchy. She has no hair from the top of her head down the back of her neck to her shoulder blades and around and down her chest......she also had her entire rear end in the same condition shortly before. It kept spreading and getting worse as they kept applying the chemicals and vaccinating a system that was clearly screaming it couldn't take anymore.

No one thinks these things are a problem as long as vets are willing to sell them, until it happens to your dog and I have seen so many Berners with horrible skin issues, digestive problems (70% of the immune system is in the digestive tract) and allergies because of this......

So I encourage you to heed the advice from experienced Berner owners and error on the side of caution. There are MANY alternatives to these chemicals and pesticides and they can be made homemade or purchased as sprays. Always have DE on hand as well ( I buy mine from Earthworks) which is the best pesticide there is and your animals can eat it ( just be sure to use food grade).
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Holdmeyer25

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04-28-2013, 11:18 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BernerRescue View Post
Berners are immune deficient and not good candidates for this strong of a chemical load if you want them to be healthy.

Vaccines......count them....plus flea and tick chemicals plus a heartworm pesticide (registered with the EPA by the way as a pesticide) that you expect them to ingest? Yikes!

I wish I could post the pictures I just took of a resuce girl we are in the process of placing......just this profile. She is just 2 years old and has been given all of the above constantly during her life......over vaccinated and over chemical application has done a number on her immune system. She has no hair over more than 1/3 of her body which is raw, oozing hot spot skin that is irritated and itchy. She has no hair from the top of her head down the back of her neck to her shoulder blades and around and down her chest......she also had her entire rear end in the same condition shortly before. It kept spreading and getting worse as they kept applying the chemicals and vaccinating a system that was clearly screaming it couldn't take anymore.

No one thinks these things are a problem as long as vets are willing to sell them, until it happens to your dog and I have seen so many Berners with horrible skin issues, digestive problems (70% of the immune system is in the digestive tract) and allergies because of this......

So I encourage you to heed the advice from experienced Berner owners and error on the side of caution. There are MANY alternatives to these chemicals and pesticides and they can be made homemade or purchased as sprays. Always have DE on hand as well ( I buy mine from Earthworks) which is the best pesticide there is and your animals can eat it ( just be sure to use food grade).

Oh my goodness! That scares me! I hope that I can find some alternative ways that really help! The breeder had him on trifexis. What are your thoughts on that? It's a pill for worms and fleas. It doesn't protect against tics, but hopefully there are suggestions online for other ways to protect him against tics. I could and would not EVER do anything that would harm him. Thank you for all your post!! They were very helpful!!
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BernerRescue

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04-29-2013, 07:21 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Holdmeyer25 View Post
Oh my goodness! That scares me! I hope that I can find some alternative ways that really help! The breeder had him on trifexis. What are your thoughts on that? It's a pill for worms and fleas. It doesn't protect against tics, but hopefully there are suggestions online for other ways to protect him against tics. I could and would not EVER do anything that would harm him. Thank you for all your post!! They were very helpful!!


Here is a good article on repellants - to avoid the entire thing, just go to page 69 in this article:
www.homs.com/RepellentReviewPBP.pdf

I make my own essential oil mix using lavender, palmarosa and citronella oils in water and spray on my dogs to repeal fleas and ticks.

Citronella can be very annoying to many dogs so I then started using Solvarome oil which includes cypress, geranium, lavender, rosemary and thyme oils.

We have rosemary bushes in our local park so my dogs would often run through these and then wreak of rosemary - which is an amazing flea repellant specifically so I never needed to do much else.

We also have a lot of ants - which eat flea larva and these are my friends so ants remain on my property. And I also use nematodes on my lawn which are amazing at destroying flea larva so this is all you need for that, plus the DE I mentioned earlier.

Just know that an essential oil spray will only last that day so must be reapplied often. Be sure you find a good blend that is not offensive to you or your dog as your dog will smell like these!

For ticks, I just use my doggie dryer to run over the dogs (parts the hair and makes the skin easy to see) and check for ticks after hikes and outings. As long as you promptly remove them, there should be no issue.

As for heartworm, there is no reason to put a harmful pesticide in your dog. You don't want them ingesting ANY pesticides and I find that if you live in a highly infected area for this, then test twice per year for it and stay on top of it. I don't buy into the scare tactics of treatment for this as no one I know who has dealt with it uses the toxic drug to treat and uses alternatives methods that work more slowly and therefore do not require your dog to be confined as there is no rapid die off to adversely clog or impact your dog's liver.

What they often don't tell you in those scare tactics is that difficult drug treatment is not because of the heartworm itself, but because of the drug they are using. Use something milder, that doesn't work as fast, and therefore doesn't cause as quick a die-off of the worms and you will not over burden the system.

Hope that helps....
Rachel
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Holdmeyer25

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04-30-2013, 09:25 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BernerRescue View Post
Here is a good article on repellants - to avoid the entire thing, just go to page 69 in this article:
www.homs.com/RepellentReviewPBP.pdf

I make my own essential oil mix using lavender, palmarosa and citronella oils in water and spray on my dogs to repeal fleas and ticks.

Citronella can be very annoying to many dogs so I then started using Solvarome oil which includes cypress, geranium, lavender, rosemary and thyme oils.

We have rosemary bushes in our local park so my dogs would often run through these and then wreak of rosemary - which is an amazing flea repellant specifically so I never needed to do much else.

We also have a lot of ants - which eat flea larva and these are my friends so ants remain on my property. And I also use nematodes on my lawn which are amazing at destroying flea larva so this is all you need for that, plus the DE I mentioned earlier.

Just know that an essential oil spray will only last that day so must be reapplied often. Be sure you find a good blend that is not offensive to you or your dog as your dog will smell like these!

For ticks, I just use my doggie dryer to run over the dogs (parts the hair and makes the skin easy to see) and check for ticks after hikes and outings. As long as you promptly remove them, there should be no issue.

As for heartworm, there is no reason to put a harmful pesticide in your dog. You don't want them ingesting ANY pesticides and I find that if you live in a highly infected area for this, then test twice per year for it and stay on top of it. I don't buy into the scare tactics of treatment for this as no one I know who has dealt with it uses the toxic drug to treat and uses alternatives methods that work more slowly and therefore do not require your dog to be confined as there is no rapid die off to adversely clog or impact your dog's liver.

What they often don't tell you in those scare tactics is that difficult drug treatment is not because of the heartworm itself, but because of the drug they are using. Use something milder, that doesn't work as fast, and therefore doesn't cause as quick a die-off of the worms and you will not over burden the system.

Hope that helps....
Rachel

Thank you!! That helps so much!! I never knew that this was so dangers to animals, not just berners. I thought that it was something to do with their immune system. I have been using this on my small dogs for years! I hope it doesn't do any damage to them as well.
Do you know anything about trifexis? The breeder that I got my berner from says that she uses that, and that it has no effects. She said she has used it for her berners, and that she has not had any problems. I am so worried about doing anything to harm him. I just want to make a good sound choice. I am worried about the flea/tic/heartworm infections, but it seems as if the meds that treat these are worse for him. I have also heard take a lemon and rub it on his coat?

Thanks again for all your help guys!! Sorry to be such a worry wart!
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BernerRescue

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04-30-2013, 04:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Holdmeyer25 View Post
Do you know anything about trifexis? The breeder that I got my berner from says that she uses that, and that it has no effects. !

Trifexis is a pesticide like all other internally ingested registered pesticides. It's pesticide ingredient is Spinosad, and the EPA documents Spinosad potential side effects if you want to review.

You may want to also look at some of the worst side effect cases to know what the "worst case scenario" is......unfortunately for ingested pesticides its death:

Trifexis issue, Necropsy results. - YouTube

Is Trifexis safe? Are the internet rumors of severe side effects true? | Veterinary News

As with anything, I can't say which dogs may react to something and which will be seemingly fine, and even further, can't predict which ones will ultimately have organ failure or cancer because of it.

But this is why my philosophy is to avoid all chemicals and pesticides with my dogs.....I don't even spray them in my yard, let alone put them IN my dogs.

You need to weigh the risk of infection with the risk from these pesticides. For what it is worth, heartworm caught early is treatable - acute organ failure and most cancers are not.

Rachel
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